Gabbles of A Spastic Cynic


November 4th, 2007

And I thought it was just me... @ 05:17 pm

Hmmm... Just after my daughter turned 11, she started a 'Goth' phase. You know--black nails, black lips, black make-up, black clothes, black mood, black poetry, dark music, just black, black, black unless it's red or dark purple. Blech. However, being the 'enlightened' mother that I am *cough* I didn't say much about the outside trappings except to deny her permission for black hair, tattoos, and industrial piercings (all of which require parental approval in this state if you're under 16). Needless to say, there was a pouting, sulking, fighting pre-teen in the house and I was clueless how to proceed.

So I did the whole, "Where did I go wrong?" guilt thing and came to the conclusion that only half of it could be laid to my working-mother doorstep, and the rest could be attributed to our culture and what was 'hip'. Blech. I decided at the time, that, while I can't change culture, I could change 'me' and so set about it. So over the next 5 years, I stopped working the overtime and used the extra time to take her to all her events. I stopped watching television and challenged her to do the same. We got 'into' Harry Potter together (and still exchange stories). I taught her about the environment and why consumerism was killing it. I even attempted to listen to her music, even the shocking and explicit shit (because, like, I hadn't listened to that myself?), which turned out to be not as bad as I thought (although if I never see a 'Hot Topic' again, it would be too soon). I helped her pick out black clothes and showed her the right way to apply black make-up (including a lesson on why cake liner is the best). If there was time I could spend with her, I did so. I tried to be supportive of her choices because, after all, her choice of clothes and music and make-up seemed pretty minor if she wasn't drinking, wasn't doing drugs, and was still a vigin. In other words, I stayed out of her face, but got smack-dab in the middle of her line-of-sight.

Eventually she started wearing other colours again (although never pink). And all that time, I thought it was just me having this grand epiphany, but have come to find out, there's others who are studying the phenomena as well. My thanks to Drusilla Dax for finding this article. I'm passing it on to you and would love to know your thoughts on it. The whole reason for the little blurb above is to let everyone know it's never too late to try to turn things around with our kids. So read this, all the way to the end--it's a bit long, but well worth it.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/mail/fl20071104x1.html

And if you're wondering where her wonderful dad was in all this? *wifely chuckle* He's *just* come to terms with the end-results of puberty, and it didn't dawn on him until he watched her walk into her dorm as he was leaving her at college this last August that she's a living, stand-alone person now. Poor guy. I think the rest of it was just a blur. *G* Oh, and she did eventually get the piercings (a 3-turn spiral) and is looking to get the tattoo, but they're actually kinda cool and it *is* her decision now.

 
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Comments

 
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From:[info]witchdragon
Date: November 5th, 2007 04:11 am (UTC)
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That is so great!! You are such a cool mom.
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 04:34 am (UTC)
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Perhaps, and you're kind to say so, but sometimes I have to wonder if it was/is enough to compensate for all the other external influences over which I had no control. I've always said kids today have it tougher than we ever did, but never realised until recently just how pernicious it is.
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From:[info]witchdragon
Date: November 5th, 2007 04:43 am (UTC)
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This is one of the many reasons I home school my kids. I get to control what they see, and while they see a lot of stuff and different kinds of people it's me they ask question too- not kids their age who have no idea what is going on. I wonder if every generation worried about how thought things were for their kids. I think Plato said something about weeping for the future when he saw the kids of his time *snickers* Not every parent would make sure their free time was devoted to their child- that is really great, and something she will always remember.
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 04:57 am (UTC)
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I seriously considered home-schooling, but by the time it even occurred to me, we were already caught in the two-income thing and my career was already well-established. Eh, we do what we can. I think every generation worries about their kids; however, today the pressures just seem so much more than even when I was a kid. More than anything I'm grateful my job allowed me to back-off the time and my husband gave his support. For so many reasons, so many people--especially single parents--have no such choices and therein lies a different kind of situation.

Your children will definitely benefit from the time you spend; they are so lucky!
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From:[info]witchdragon
Date: November 5th, 2007 05:26 am (UTC)
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There is so much going on in today's world. And so many different types of homes and families.
I hope my kids look back on their childhood with happy thoughts- as we all do. I'm waiting until they're 25, 26 and then I'll ask *g*
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 08:41 am (UTC)
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Eh, you won't need to wait that long. The first time the 'world' overwhelms them, they'll generally let you know. Or there'll be the, "Oh, Mom, you'll never guess what happened!"

I live for moments like that.
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From:[info]stasia
Date: November 5th, 2007 05:45 am (UTC)
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I love the phrase, "out of her face, but smack-dab in her line-of-sight". I try to stay there with my daughter; sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. She hasn't hit the all-black goth stage yet, and we've not seen signs of the all out rebellion that other parents are seeing in her peer group, but we're braced for it.

I worry about the children I see. They're treated as mindless consumers and expected to be able to make choices that are more complex than they should be involved in.

I can tell I'm not quite coherent - I wish I could explain my concerns better. I'm very glad to hear that healthy happy kids are possible, though. It sounds like you've done a wonderful job!

Stasia
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 07:56 am (UTC)
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While I know that a teen's defiance is a very real, physical attribute of adolescence, I sometimes think that part of it is due to how much attention we pay them, or not, or of what kind. If adolescence is the time af self-actualization and burgeoning independence, then trying to 'control' our children seems counter-productive. The 'line-of-sight' seemed to work, because she always knew I watching, but I rarely commented, whether good or bad. And I noticed something as we became more comfortable with each other (and that took about 4 years to reach). Do you remember when your daughter was little, say two or so, she would venture out a little way to see the world, but then she'd always toddle back and touch you, just to make certain you were really there? And each time, she'd go a little further? Well, that doesn't change, just the means of communication does. Not so much touching, but a lot more talking and some real validation.

For example, the child's and my biggest arguments centred around the bus. There were rules. No bus after dark by herself, home by 9:00 pm even if with friends, no trips to Waikiki without friends, call me when you change locations--no exceptions, etc. Whine, whine, whine. All my friends get to do it. If your friends were lemmings... Why don't you trust me? I trust you, it's the rest of humanity I don't trust. yada yada yada. On and on... until coming home from school one day, I think she was 15 or so, a man across the aisle pulled down his pants and started wanking for her benefit. She laughs about it now, but I think it finally dawned on her that maybe mom was right. And while I'm unhappy she had to see something like that, there's a quiet part of me grateful for a relatively safe happenstance that taught her some caution. Next time she might not be so lucky, nor have a bus driver who would stop and toss the guy off the bus on the side of the mountain in the middle of nowhere. (Although the bus drivers here are the only reason I ever felt comfortable letting her ride it in the first place.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is bracing yourself may only be an exercise unto itself if you're already talking and already paying attention. And validation goes a long way towards trust.
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From:[info]lilyseyes
Date: November 5th, 2007 07:48 am (UTC)
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*claps* Excellent! I gave in on the tattoos at 17, but she is 21 and engaged now - happily independent and strong. It is such a reware to see them step around the pitfalls so many kids fall into! I went through high school in American Samoa and had none of the pressures these kids do!
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 08:44 am (UTC)
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I held firm about the tattoos, but told her to go ask Gwyllion how much she charges for a custom design. At least it can be tasteful, maybe.

I'm always happy to hear about strong young people; I get so tired hearing about the ones who've fallen aside.
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From:[info]suemonroe
Date: November 5th, 2007 07:56 am (UTC)
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Thanks for sharing the link to the article. It eases some of my concerns. I was worried that I was too strict or old-fashioned, I told my son that I wouldn't even discuss him having a TV in his room until he was 13 at least (he's 7 now) and we only have a ten year old video game system that's he's rarely allowed to play on. So I'll keep tolerating the moans and groans when I declare a no TV night and force the little darlings to play cards or other games with their mean old mommy. With my two being so young, it's nice to know it'll all work out in the long run.

As for the goth thing, I could handle that far easier than my nearly 4 year old's obsession with pink. She's such a girly-girl, and I never was, so I have no clue how to deal with it... lol.
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 09:06 am (UTC)
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You mean ol' mommy, you. Sounds delightful! Nope, not too strict. I can't tell you how many fights I refereed over the TV remote between the two kids (erm, that would be the child and the husband, mind you). I had to stand firm and shame them into agreeing to NO second TV in the house at all until they could cooperate for just one month over it. It seemed a safe bet, and frankly I was more concerned about them *never* talking if they had separate sets and no reason to sit together. They never did make it and we still only have the one set.

As to the pink, this just a thought; call me odd. When asked about why she's so militant about pink (absolutely hates it), my daughter will tell you it's because she refuses to, "Fall for their propaganda". When I asked her to explain, she talked me into a road trip to a toys r us, a place I hadn't visited in over seven years. After she dragged me inside, she just pointed. And you know, good gads, half the store--almost all the 'girl-stuff'--was pink. Thousands of shades of pink. Like pink was the new black. Wowsa. I don't watch TV and I've not seen the ads in six years. It was quite a shock. And you'll never guess where she got her epiphany about it. From Josie and the Pussycats, the movie. There's this whole thing about controlling the masses and the 'in' colour is just one of the things they use to test their control. Who knew. It never ceases to amaze me the things that influence our kids.

So, maybe in addition to being a girly-girl, your daughter is responding to what she sees as what 'girly-girls' want? Perhaps you need to convince her that lavender or yellow or (heaven forbid) blue is the new pink? As to how to deal with the actual 'girly-girl' part, I haven't a clue, either.
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From:[info]the_minx_17
Date: November 5th, 2007 10:48 am (UTC)
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We did the goth phase. And I even let her die her hair black - no piercings and no tats- but I did give her the hair because hers was so damn near black anyway, it just wasn't worth the fight. And she outgrew it. And went to vivid bright pink Tonks-like hair. And the blue. But again, she outgrew it.

Now, just shy of 18, she is back in the technicolor world, with the hair color she had at the beginning of it all, about to join the Marine Corp and go to college on their dime. However, although if I never see a 'Hot Topic' again, it would be too soon, on this I can feel your pain. *snicker*
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From:[info]the_minx_17
Date: November 5th, 2007 10:49 am (UTC)
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And, yes, that was supposed to be DYE. Proof again why I should never make comments before coffee.
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 02:52 pm (UTC)
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That's all right I meant to say 'mortally wounded hair' (and isn't that what died hair is all about) but I was only on the first cuppa, so only half the brain was awake. *G*
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 02:48 pm (UTC)
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I hear you on the pink hair. Our ward (who's now 20) is a natural blonde, but looks better as a redhead, but last year she got a bug up her arse to change it to Tonk Fuscia and and later to pink on the top and purple on the tips. Damned near made my eyes bleed to look at her, but I firmly kept my mouth shut and merely started buying her conditioner for mortally impaired hair. When she lost her job about 3 months ago, we did the whole cut and strip thing when she rudely discovered that pink hair was all right for the computer store and Spencer's, but not ok for Sears *G*. The child, however, is a blonde. Black? Shudder.

I'm so glad to hear your daughter knows where she's going and has found a path--and not an easy one, mind you--to get there. You must be so very proud!

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From:[info]mecklen
Date: November 5th, 2007 01:55 pm (UTC)
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Everyone who has commented seems to be a mom in a similar situation, but I was the daughter in this scenario. I had a rather...moody (putting it very lightly) childhood and a relationship with my mom I made bad because of my mood. And let me say, I think you've handled it extremely well - and the relationship with your daughter is a testament to that. For any mom struggling with this, I think they just need to remember that kids always want their approval. Sometimes it needs to be subtle, but I think being able to feel comfortable in your family, in your home, goes a long way for making one feel comfortable in other areas of life (school, society as a whole, etc). 'Rebellions' with clothing and makeup and music are also experiments in a new way of expression, and being supported in those experiments means a lot to kids. Teaching her how to put on makeup properly and picking out her clothes with her...that's the best thing a mom can do. It lets her be creative in the areas she wants, but gives you some control over it.

And for any other mumsies going through this, or fearing they'll go through it, the attitude always passes and your daughters will always want your attention and approval. (And if they're like me, they'll apologize continuously for their behaviour. :D)

Thanks so much for posting this. You obviously have a really great relationship with your daughter.
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 5th, 2007 03:06 pm (UTC)
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You know, Mums need validation as much as their children. Thank you for your comments; they mean much to me and all the mums who struggle so.

I think 'moody' is synonymous with 'teenager'. I remember my grandmother saying my mother was a moody thing, and I know I was, too. The thing I hated the most growing up (and even to this day) was/is the iron control my mother tried/tries to exert over my life and now that of my daughter (since she failed so abysmally with me). It sounds like you and your mum have come to terms with it, and for that I applaud you. I never did/could not (and neither can my child) and thus more than an ocean separates us. And frankly, I'd die before I'd do something to make my daughter speak of me the way she/I speak of my mother. Pity that, but I don't see us changing anytime soon.

So yes, I really appreciate it when I hear that others can reconcile.
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From:[info]leianora
Date: November 5th, 2007 03:54 pm (UTC)
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Speaking as another daughter, and as a disabled child in a household where I was the only child of a perfectly "normal" family, I can truly say that you definitely did a wonderful thing by your daughter. My father was in the military for nearly the first half of my life, so my mother had to work a fulltime job, forcing me and my sister to be in the hands of several babysitters, some of whom were unreliable at best, and downright abusive at worst. By the time my sister was 11, she was babysitting me. As a result, she became a selfish, self-centered angry individual. She only calls my parents when she needs something, and she very rarely calls me at all even though we live less than an hour and a half from each other. I was, still am, one of those people who didn't give much of a damn what people thought of me. I had to be. I got picked on by the kids in public school because of my blindness constantly, so I learned to stop caring if people didn't like the way I did my hair or wore my clothes. I never gave in to peer pressure, and I've never had more than four or five people whom I called "friends." Everyone else is an acquaintance. The word friend is a very special one and is applied to those people who have changed my life so profoundly that I literally wouldn't be where I am today without there aid in some way. Getting back to the subject, I was the quiet child. Since I was never really at home much, being at the blind school, summer camp for the blind, on snowskiing trips, or at college, I was also the distant one. Needless to say, my parents are only now beginning to find out who I am as a person. They're seeing me as an adult and realizing how capable I am. I talk to them much more than my sister does, and I'm grateful for the love they did give me when they could, though, because I know it was genuine.
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 6th, 2007 11:56 pm (UTC)
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Family dynamics never cease to amaze me probably because mine was so fucked in so many ways and yet really cool in others, but I do know I spent most of *my* parenting thoughts not on what I could do, but what I certainly didn't want to do. Which I'm still not certain is a positive thing.

I hear you about the whole being different and being picked on and being self-reliant. To whom was I going to complain? Who would champion me? The clueless father who was rarely home? The choke-hold, domineering, over-religious, self-righteous, "I hate my job, but I'm only doing it for you" mother? Or perhaps the 'I do everything I can to piss off your mother' live-in grandmother? Hardly. I spent *a lot* of time alone and while that's good in small doses... And my daughter, when attending the public schools, being the small blonde hauoli girl meant that being alone was preferable to daily beatings by the less enlightened locals. I sometimes think there's no halfway state for the underdog. One either becomes strong and self-reliant, or dissolves into a piddling self-pitying mess.

Regardless, I've always admired your gumption and spirit. Thank you for allowing me to see a small glimpse as to why that's so.
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From:[info]aubrem
Date: November 5th, 2007 03:57 pm (UTC)
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I really enjoyed that article, thank you. Her priorities are straight AND she's level-headed. The fact that she doesn't completely reject screens and technology for children, but rather would limit their tyranny, gives her credibility for me. Tech is a wonderful thing - if you don't let it rule you.

I have a 9 yo, two 7 yos and a 4 yo and I find that two things are key: 1)running around and playing outside in freedom (no "don't do this, don't get your clothes dirty, be careful) for at least an hour or two a day and 2) when they talk to you, stop what you're doing, look at them and actually listen to what they're saying. Absolutely key.

Now that they're getting a bit older and school is getting more challenging I've had to limit electronics (tv, computer, video games) to Friday after school to Sunday night only. My oldest has a bit of an addictive personality like me and can't switch attention from games to school work to chatting with family, and my second oldest son is a bit lazy (also like me) and would lie on the couch and watch tv all afternoon and evening if he could. So, we don't have those and just talk and play and read and do homework during the week. : /
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 7th, 2007 12:49 am (UTC)
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when they talk to you, stop what you're doing, look at them and actually listen to what they're saying.

YES! Oh, oh, I can't emphasize that enough. And I would add one more thing to it: If they want to give you something, even if it's thoroughly disgusting, take it, coo (or ewwww) over it, and say thank you. Best piece of advice my grandmother ever gave me.

As to electronics, I guess I was lucky that the child was totally uninterested in the computer (or gaming for that matter) until she turned 11 and found Neopets and even then she was only interested in the animals and making a store; I never had to limit her. When her school required all kids to have their own laptop when she turned 12, I had a hard time getting her to use it until she discovered fanfiction.net, after which time, I had problems keeping her off! *G* Which problem was made even more difficult since *the school* had half her assignments online. And since I'm so totally against the whole orwell 'big brother' paw-their-drawers-every-weekend thing, we had to compromise about policing her personal vs school computer time. As long as she maintained the highest grades of which she was capable (and not necessarily a's either) we said we would not police her computer time. Eh, it worked. Some days she went without her fanfiction, others she didn't touch schoolwork. However, and the big however, she learned to budget her time AND learned firsthand the consequences if she did not. The one and only semester her grades dropped (in 8th grade) I blocked her favourite sites on her browser and she went without fanfiction for an entire semester. Period. OUCH. It never happened again. *G*

But yes, the article struck me as very reasonable and grounded in reality. And I was glad to see the causes being distributed over a large number of little things that add up to a bigger whole. Now, the real question is how we fix it.
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From:[info]bridgetmkennitt
Date: November 5th, 2007 06:15 pm (UTC)
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I tried to be supportive of her choices because, after all, her choice of clothes and music and make-up seemed pretty minor if she wasn't drinking, wasn't doing drugs, and was still a vigin.

I like that you realized this, because there are far worse things in the world a teen could do than wearing black clothes and having a black mood. You sound like a cool mom. :)
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 7th, 2007 01:04 am (UTC)
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Black mood = normal teenager, IMHO. *G*

I suppose I felt that way because my own mother was so busy dictating what I had to wear (dresses only, hems at least 2" below the knee), what religion I was going to follow (and there was *only* one), what friends I could have (and none of them were actually the ones I had), she never noticed that I changed clothes at school, I drank and smoked, snuck regularly out of the house, and wasn't a virgin. I think it's criminal when parents either force their children to be such total sheep to their unreasonable demands, or force them into such a deep dishonesty.

I also think it's terrible when parents lie to their teenagers and say, "I trust you," but have so many unreasonable rules that it's evident the only thing they want is total control and blind obedience. Which kinda defeats the whole purpose of growing up.

It's a fine line, but talking, really talking as in a fair exchange of ideas, and honesty, real honesty where the parent lets the teen know of *their* fears and how the rules are in response to those fears, these things are what one has to do in order for both to survive as rational human beings.
From:[info]ex_rumpelsti605
Date: November 5th, 2007 07:35 pm (UTC)
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I think it is the only way to Behave as a mother of a teenage child. No longer Are they grateful to get a Glance their way from their parents. If the parents Do not wish to spend any time With them they feel no obligation to listen to them or to Consider any parental advice. It is about being a Parent and a friend without ever forgetting You are both I think. You are wise and lucky To have found your way Through this very dangerous and confusing maze that is Teenage.
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 7th, 2007 01:11 am (UTC)
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You're so right! Parents need to really listen and pay attention if they expect the same consideration from their children. And being friends with them is a lovely side benefit. However, especially when they're underage, the friend part often has to take a backseat to the parent part. I found it very difficult sometimes to separate the two because if I weren't her mom, if we were totally unrelated, I'd want to be my daughter's friend. I like her. Eh, it made for some interesting internal arguments. *G*
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From:[info]d_drusilla
Date: November 5th, 2007 11:17 pm (UTC)
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The next time I incarnate, can we be blood related? Pretty please. *tries to look cute*
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 7th, 2007 01:13 am (UTC)
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Sure. However, given your sense of fun and adventure and the interesting viewpoints you have, I think I'd rather you be the mom. *G*
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From:[info]d_drusilla
Date: November 7th, 2007 09:57 pm (UTC)
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Whoa! You'd trust me to be your mum. Thanks!!
^_^
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 16th, 2007 05:18 am (UTC)
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Sure I would. However, are you certain you could handle *me* as a daughter? I'm kinda high maintenance. *G*
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From:[info]d_drusilla
Date: November 16th, 2007 11:22 am (UTC)
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*wink*
I'm sure we could team up to frighten a few relatives *evil wink*
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 19th, 2007 09:58 am (UTC)
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MWAHAHAHA! I have a list.
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From:[info]d_drusilla
Date: November 19th, 2007 07:53 pm (UTC)
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*grin*
Got a looong list, too.
*Slyth smile*
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From:[info]athenakt
Date: November 6th, 2007 02:20 pm (UTC)
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Hmm. Very interesting article. You rock for making that decision to be with your daughter like that. I also liked the concept of "I stayed out of her face, but got smack-dab in the middle of her line-of-sight." Well said!
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 7th, 2007 02:06 am (UTC)
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Thank you. When I made the decision to cut back on work, etc., and considering how much time and 'me' I had invested in my career, I thought that was one of the hardest decisions I'd even made. That is until we went shopping for her prom dress and I had to decide whether I was going to steer her towards demure or sexy.

Hmmm... eighteen, petite, blonde, cute, her only Senior prom, and attending with four guys and three other girls all going stag? Yeah, sexy won.
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From:[info]kinwad
Date: November 6th, 2007 11:33 pm (UTC)
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I just returned from being away & am trying to catch up on everything!

I read your post with extreme interest because you've demonstrated that, contrary to many popular beliefs, a parent CAN change and affect their children. Instead of taking the easy way out and closing your eyes with an attitude that "oh, she'll outgrow it!" or not recognizing that a potential future problem could possibly be taking hold, you took the proverbial "bull by the horns" and became pre-emptively proactive instead of reactive.

I've always felt that it was important to pick and choose your battles as a parent, being aware of those that will impact your child in the future vs those that seem to be of paramount importance in the present.

You should be applauded!
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 7th, 2007 02:17 am (UTC)
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Thank you. Battle-picking was a skill I acquired out of self-defence and one I had difficulty imparting to the busband. Who wants to argue over every little thing? Evidently, he didn't mind it as much as I did.

And, of course, given how bad I was as a teen, I remembered well that a teen who doesn't argue and agrees with you about everything is most likely sneaking around doing all the things you don't want them to do.

However, I think parents need to fess-up to their kids that they still have things to learn as well. I think the biggest life-skill *I* gained was tolerance. Not patience, though, but tolerance went a long way to ensuring her lifespan past puberty. *G*
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From:[info]carpet_diemon
Date: November 7th, 2007 11:20 pm (UTC)
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You are a wicked cool mom! I dragged my mom to the tattoo parlor when I was thinking of it, and it's great when you can be straightforward and upfront with your parents (even re: purple hair)!
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From:[info]igtow
Date: November 16th, 2007 05:21 am (UTC)
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Purple hair! *shudder* If she weren't going to NYC to get the tattoo, I'm sure the child would drag me along, too. Although I am getting to help with picking which one. Or at least I hope it's just one. *double shudder*

Thanks--it's always so cool to hear about people who get on well with their parents, probably because I didn't with mine.

Gabbles of A Spastic Cynic